I am frequently asked for my opinion of the “butt and pass” and/or “interlocking” method of log construction. Some folks seem to think there is a big difference between the two, others use the terms interchangeably as if they are same. Both are attempts to bypass the elegant and critical corner notches of a quality-built log home and replace these vital key features with a few boxes of screws, or scrap pieces of rebar, hammered into place.
Go figure.
Rather than having to repeat myself over and over I thought I might share my opinion here with everyone today.
And, in order to make things simpler, I will stick to one single term for any home built from a pile of large sticks of lumber which are held together with nails, spikes, screws, or chewing gum, as…. “Butt and Pass”.
The main sales technique that this industry uses to bring in those seeking to build their first log home is often through the planting of the seeds of fear that the average person might somehow be incapable of creating a corner notch, and also through making dubious promises that less time and effort will be needed to build one’s future home by using this “new and improved” method. This is shameful, and misleading.
There have been hundreds of thousands of traditionally-built log homes created by homeowners, over the course of several centuries, who never once built a log home before. Most of these individuals lacked the education, tools, and resources that we have available today. Back then there were no books to reference, no YouTube videos to watch, no Amazon to deliver tools to their doors, and yet somehow they put together homes that we marvel over today and yet we feel somehow feel disadvantaged and incapable of building a cabin of equal quality ourselves?
The average time to completely notch and assemble a traditional log home with a team of four men today is two weeks… How much quicker can a “butt and pass” cabin be built? IF there is any small savings of time… would it be worth the loss of precious corner notches in order to gain another day or two sitting on a couch?
Come on now!… what’s the hurry?
Putting up a cabin is an enjoyable activity… we should savor the experience, and be thankful for it! (not try to get it over with as quickly as possible)
For most people, the opportunity to build ones own dream home comes around only once in a lifetime. When we get done with the process of building our home would we rather take pride in its craftsmanship? or in the fact that we built it as fast as we could?
When has fast ever been better? Does anyone actually prefer fast food? The whole point in owning a log cabin is to have a home that is carefully crafted… if we want fast and easy… there is always vinyl siding.
Claims are also made that this “butt and pass” method is stronger, but no documentation is ever offered. Curious.
And how is that the logs used in this manner don’t season and settle (as it is often promised)? If you go this route, make sure and ask for a guarantee… in writing. All freshly sawn logs take a few years to season… driving a spike in them does not change their nature.
There also seems to be a grudge held by B&P enthusiasts which is focused against those in the log cabin kit industry. I agree that the majority of kit homes have their issues, and many are just awful… but the concept behind having a cabin pre-built by experienced craftsmen on their home turf is excellent (particularly for those who don’t want to hand-craft their own logs). There are couple log kit suppliers out there who produce wonderful homes (please, don’t ask me… at this point I am not making any recommendations… maybe one day)
BTW… the log cabin seen in the photo above is NOT a “butt and pass” cabin, nor will you likely ever find an image of one of them on this website. The cabin above was built in the traditional log cabin manner, with hewn logs, notched corners, and chinking in between the courses… my favorite method to build a log home… the most popular, and a time proven method. I didn’t invent it… I simply tried it, many times, as well as other forms of construction, and discovered that it is BY FAR the best method. I’ve never met anyone who has built a cabin in the traditional manner who would then go on to build a “butt and pass” cabin for themselves.
For the record… if you can’t tell by now I am one of those who does not care for the “b&p” method, either the round pole system or the one of creating uniformly dimensional logs and then laying them one on top of the other much like a mason does his work, but with the added step of nailing (or screwing) each course down onto the previous one. It is within this later “uniform log” aspect of log building where I find my greatest concern.
If you choose to use timbers that are sized and shaped so that each is machined to the same thickness, just like pencils coming off an assembly line… I’d encourage you to consider a completely different path than building a log home and rather choose to build a timber-frame home. Most woodworkers I have met and worked with over the years would agree with me on that. (The timber-framing community has great respect towards handcrafted log cabins, but nothing but ridicule for a screwed-together lumber structure with no joinery).
I also have issue as to how these equally-sized timbers are assembled, where each flattened piece is laid on top of the other and then they are spiked together. Any time two pieces of wood come in direct contact with each other laid horizontally eventually water will find it’s way in between them and won’t come out until it rots both pieces of wood. I have seen this in nature and I’ve seen it hundreds of times in log homes that are built this way.
The only way to stop this decay process is through the constant application of coats of toxic sealers, and the installation of new caulking that must be maintained to be 100% impenetrable. Eventually any home will find itself being occupied by someone unaware of the need of frequent thorough maintenance and then the home will be lost.
If water were to find it’s way in between two logs of a traditionally built cabin it would encounter the naturally rounded top of the log and roll back out to the outside by following the hill-shaped contour of a horizontal log. Not so if a person chooses to use the perfectly sawn surfaces of this style of butt and pass log method. The flat rough surface of a sawmill cut behind a leaky chink joint would act like a sponge absorbing each drop of moisture, and with no means of shedding it, this moisture would eventually encourage mold and rot.
Building a butt and pass cabin is assembly line work of sorts. It’s not about crafting a log home, it’s about driving a spike or screwing a screw, one after the other. And if these spikes or screws ever decay, rust, or break… the house will fall to pieces.
Some would go as far as arguing that a “butt and pass” house is not even a log house. The definition of a log home is “a house made of logs that are notched together in the corners”. “Butt and pass” fails to meet even this most basic of definitions. I’d call these b&p homes “wood houses” or “timber houses”… houses where unfortunately the timbers were used in the worst possible way… where the wood is fully exposed to the weather, in a manner prone to rot, and built with no more applied craftsmanship demonstrated than the ability to repeatedly drive in large nails.
Log cabin construction evolved and improved over the course of centuries. It reached perfection during the early 1600’s and remained unchanged well into the late 1800’s… with little change or improvements occurring during this long period of time because…well… none was needed. By the late 1800’s, the popularity of log construction died due to the advent of inexpensive and much faster modern stick-framing. Those early log homes, today numbering in the tens of thousands, many two to three centuries old, still stand proud with no sealers or caulking ever having been applied. They have proven themselves to be durable, long-lasting, and nearly maintenance free. And, extremely attractive.
The oldest known traditionally built cabin (hewn) in the United States is now nearly 400 years old. I know of no round log cabins in the States that is over a hundred year old. And I know of no Butt and Pass cabin that is as old as I am. And yet the promoters of this form of log construction say it is more durable… what is the basis of such a claim?
In the traditional method of log home construction the logs were hewn flat on the interior and exterior faces of the log (they used a variety of axes to do this). There were a few reasons behind this including; aesthetics and function (most people like a somewhat flat wall surface their home) but more importantly this step exposed the durable heartwood layer of the log and removed the more rot resistant and bug loving sap layer of the wood. And, as one more bonus, these flattened faces created a drip edge that kept water outside of the home where it belongs. Check out these videos to learn more. here and here.
One has to wonder why were hundreds of thousands of log homes built the traditional way… homes that lasted for centuries… and that not one of those log builders ever thought to nail them together as in the b&p method? Not one of them. Were they all somewhat lacking in creative thought or inspiration back then? Or, did some of them try this technique and none of those cabins proved durable enough to still be around for us to see today?
I would ask that you compare photos of the historic log homes of our past to the modern “butt and pass” cabins of today and really “see” which you find more attractive. I’m sure those who have built cabins with this b&p method are proud of their homes… it’s hard not to love any home a person builds immediately after putting so much effort and money into it. I know this to be true… very early in my career in building homes I built a home of natural wood and stone. I was proud of that home for a long while… it took me a few years before I eventually came around to admitting to myself and others that it wasn’t the best home I could have built. That failure though led me in the years since to seek out the best alternative for every decision I make… especially when it comes to something as important and expensive as a house.
I discovered that new is not always better… sometimes it is, but often it is not. The butt and pass method was created at the same time that aluminum house wiring, vinyl siding, shag carpeting, and split level homes were all the rage. All low points in American housing.
To wrap this all up let me say…
Traditional log construction is the best means of building a log home… not just because it is “the old way of doing it”… no, it is simply the BEST method of log construction… then, now, and into the future. There will never be a better way. Some things cannot be improved upon.
And the good news is that Traditional Log Construction is not a method that can be patented or sold… it is free for us all to use.
If you try it, you will never regret it. (Regret, is best avoided… it’s a miserable thing to live with.)
Thank you for your time… and please, for further commentary on this subject, read the comments below…
Originally posted 2017-06-12 16:22:17.
Check out this website and learn a little about the butt and pass system that you know very little about ….
http://www.buildloghomes.org
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the link.
I went ahead and visited the site you linked and I looked around a bit. (I’ve been there before)
I’m not certain what I was expected to find there “that I knew very little about” though. (you weren’t very specific with your comment)
From the rather terse nature of your comment, clearly you have taken offense, and for that I apologize.
I’m afraid that I’m not “politically correct” at my age. I tell it as I see it. And, if I have an opinion that will help my friends here at handmade houses I share it. I think that’s my responsibility.
I am open for continuing dialog on this issue if you’d like.
It does seem like there are good people shown there on your site who are happy with the homes that they have built… and that’s a good thing. Owner builders, working with wood, is a common shared goal between that site and this one.
But (no pun intended), overall my opinion of butt and pass remains the same.
It’s ok for those who build homes to have personal preferences and differing opinions. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same.
I’d love to hear your opinions on traditional log construction.
Clearly you have your chosen method of log construction… “butt and pass”… “set in your ways” is how my mamma would call it… and no matter what I might say I won’t be able to convince you that the traditional method of building log homes, the one that has been used for centuries and has proven to last for centuries, might just be the best way the best way to build a log home.
I would like to offer you a friendly challenge… you send me images of the three most attractive cabins that you have built using butt and pass, and I’ll do the same to you with regard to the traditional method that I have most often used. And then we will both post those images on our website’s front page, side by side, with links to each others site.
How about it? up for some friendly dialog and exchange of ideas?
Noah
Very gracious reply to the previous comment, Noah.. I hope one day to join your group of like-minded builders-just can’t afford it at present, but I’ll keep reading and learning from your available materials until then. Thanks again.
Thank you Jim. 🙂
It’s taken me a lifetime to come to the conclusions and opinions that I have.
I’ve reached that point in life (now nearing 60) where I want to share what I’ve learned and how I came to the preferences that I have. I’m not saying that I know it all, or that I’m always right… and I’m always eager for dialog and a respectful exchange of ideas.
It seems that most within the handmade house field there are many who focus on the pros of their chosen branch of a selected niche and they are blind to its cons. Every niche, every form of construction, has it’s pros and cons… but for some reason, very few within each specialty will speak of the cons, nor will they consider the pros of another option. In our “politically correct world” anyone who wants to discuss or debate the merits of something is insulted and branded as being ignorant or confrontational (which is never my intent).
I do hope you find a way to join us within the Handmade House Academy… the value you will find there far exceeds it’s cost. I do hope to be offering a payment plan in the coming days.
Thank you for your support and encouragement!
I don’t think you ever mentioned what way you do like since you don’t like the Butt and Pass method..? I thought that is the old/traditional way? But u say it’s not
Hi Meia,
I am huge proponent of the traditional way in building a log cabin… and not because I invented it or own the patent on it (I didn’t and I don’t)
It’s just the best way… time proven to last for centuries… the most common method of construction prior to 1900… built by the average person with the minimum amount of needed tools… and attractive enough that even today artists stop and create a painting of them.
For the record my intent on this site and in my videos is not to insult other forms of construction but to share what I have learned through a long lifetime in handbuilding homes.
Noah
Noah …
When it comes to “butt and pass” type of log homes, I have learned a lot. Having friends that work for a log home builder (err, erector) that have erected hundreds of these cabins in the Smoky Mountains, one thing they’ve taught me. They take constant maintenance. Those who have them built don’t think about that aspect of them, only that they want to rent them out to make money.
A yearly fee to have the maintenance done, so that it doesn’t rot away, can be very costly. Especially if it’s hanging off the side of a mountain. Those who don’t pay, well, you don’t have to imagine since there’s living proof as evidence of what happens.
I looked at a property for sale there that included a log home. Two brothers, in their 80’s, were still living in it. Spending a good portion of the afternoon talking to them, I learned the history of the cabin. It had been brought in by their father on the backs of mules from another state. It had already been in the family for over 100 years when it was moved and was just as good as the day it was first built. A “true” log home. Unfortunately, the estate was jointly owned by all the siblings and any sale was quickly squashed by two of the them who wanted to keep it in the family. If not for that, I’d probably be sitting on the cabin’s porch right now using a hot-spot to access the internet. Forgot to ask if the privy was packed in too. Oh well ….. Guess I’ll never know.
Art,
Thanks for your feedback!
I’ve had similar experiences and have seen plenty of failures and high maintenance issues with b&p houses. Plus, they really aren’t that good looking.
The traditional method of building a cabin, hewn and chinked, cannot be beat… it’s beautiful and proven durable to last for centuries with little or no maintenance… and to top it off, it really doesn’t take any more effort or time, or, cost any more. It baffles the mind why cabins are built this way at all… hmmmm
Anyway, thanks for the story of that one cabin, sorry you didn’t get it. Log cabins were the original mobile homes. I’ve encountered a few where the family decided to move it “further up the holler”.
Noah
What about the B & P method using full round logs, not milled?
Hi Rex,
Thanks for the question!
In my humble opinion… that wouldn’t make any difference. I would invite you to watch two videos that I made (with more to come) on traditional log construction…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN-kA_60_Xk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMpur-4-KG8
I don’t promote the virtues of traditional log construction because I invented it (I didn’t), nor because I have a product to sell (I don’t). I’m just trying to pass on decades of experience in trying it all and seeing what works. The traditional method is enjoyable to do, looks great, and has proven to last for centuries with little or no maintenance. Whereas I have seen many failures of butt and pass. And I’m not alone.
I can appreciate the beauty and craftsmanship of the Scandinavian scribed method that uses round logs (but I have plenty of worries with it’s durability in the wetter climates of most states). Butt-and-pass on the other hand is assembly line work… “cut, nail, next!”… Only a few people ever have the opportunity to build their own home… and for those lucky individuals it generally only comes around once, so savor the experience… and give it your best.
Throughout the construction of ones own home many are tempted to seek out the route of simplicity, speed, and cost savings… fast and cheap. The final result of fast and cheap is never good (just look at the fast food industry vs a nice restaurant or a home-cooked meal). And a home is not one meal… it lasts a lifetime. If you seek quality first, at little or no additional cost, when it comes time to assemble the logs… go with traditional.
If you read the writings of those who promote butt and pass they speak of “ease”… of “fast”… of “simple”… and “low cost”. But you rarely (if ever) will find the mention of “craftmanship”, “maintenance-free”, “time-proven” “most attractive”, etc.
When you complete your home, which set of adjectives do want yourself and others to use when they view your home?
Noah
Hello Noah. I like what your project and wished more people would realize the talents and abilities the great Lord gave us all. I also like aspects of the traditional log homes BUT have to look at the practical side of building, meaning mostly the location where it’s built. I’ve built several different types of homes trying to find one that works in very harsh somewhat brutal weather. I’ve settled on the B&P log home as being the best for Wyoming climate. We have regular 60+ mph winds. Extremely harsh blowing snow that I believe a traditional log home would be impossible to keep tight as the corners are not completely chinked outside for example. 1) I’m able to do the construction by myself on a B&P. 2) The B&P is tighter when chinked as correctly as possible. I use screws which if you actually seen how they hold is impressive. 3) We have to have very large eaves because of deep snow which I believe a B&P would support better. 4)The B&P settle less than other methods as long as the moisture content is kept under 18% ( standing dead). Respectfully, some of the issues with a traditional is 1) unless it’s much different back east, financing is most likely not going to happen as the banks just do not understand them and rarely finance for one to be their own general. They also would not take a liking to the additional time for a traditional. I had a very difficult time finding financing on the first home we built. 2). A traditional here would be a building inspecting nightmare (electrical for example would have to be run in all conduit) 3) Most codes call for egress windows which are much larger for a fully equipped firefighter to get through and would not fit the esthetics of a traditional. 4) We have primarily pine and it would be very difficult keeping the twist out of a traditional without securely screwing as you do with a B&P. Again respectfully, it appears your project with the traditional should be directed much more to persons with higher means ($). Years ago, I installed copper accents on entry ways on a few high dollar homes. Absolutely miserable to work with as it would scratch or crease if even looked at incorrectly (!) and I would in no way advise any DIY to try to work with such an expensive product. You must be very blessed with very talented tradesmen back east as we are NOT which is why I started building ours myself yrs ago. Just a few comments but again I do like your project just have a hard time seeing the average person with average means accomplishing it for some of the reasons you’ve given. B&P can be quite attractive if done correctly. I personally do not see B&P as being anymore assembly line than building a traditional. I look forward to your progress and heck maybe I may start to see your point of view better???
Glenn,
Thank you!… For the kind and thoughtful counterpoints on the “butt and pass” method of construction.
(I wish more people could have differing opinions, and not take offense at others for their opinion).
I would like to respond to some of the points your raise…
Wyoming? Brrrrrr. I have built quite a few cabins on mountaintops here in Virginia that are subject to strong winds on occasion. (I do admit our mountains are shorter and our weather much more temperate). We insulate our chink gaps with spray-in foam and do not have any issues with air infiltration around the corners, we take pride in our corner notches which fit tightly together at that one point of a cabin where all the weight of a traditional cabin bares… so the corners are basically compressed together in such a way that a single molecule of air couldn’t get through.
If I was building a home in Wyoming, Canada, or in Alaska, I would seriously consider the virtues of timber-framing which offers much greater insulation value than any form of log construction could ever hope to offer. I do love log… but there are other ways to have a home made of wood and fine joinery.
I have built several traditional log cabins by myself. I prefer to work with friends, or a crew (for safety, ease, and companionship), but a traditional cabin can be built by one man working alone. Think “Daniel Boone”. I’m not certain why a butt and pass cabin might be easier… is it because the logs are smaller?
I am curious about how butt and pass cabins would settle less than traditionally built cabins. Why would this be if the same wood is used? For the record I prefer to use vintage salvaged logs when building a cabin so I typically experience no settling at all… but settling is an issue all forms of log construction techniques experience when using new logs… no argument there.
Financing of a cabin is the exact opposite here in Virginia. Most banks won’t finance any log cabin that resembles a log cabin kit home (including butt and pass) as there is little demand for them and they are difficult to sell as any local realtor will tell you. But log homes built in the historic manner are prized and aesthetically adaptable to other forms of construction being added such as timber framing and stick-built. I’ve never know a case where any bank turned down a loan for one of my projects and whenever I’ve asked those same bankers if they finance kit homes they respond with a terse “no”. Perhaps financing varies from region to region? Most of those I have met have wanted to avoid the mortgage trap altogether… that’s one of the points in building a cabin for many… but it is a good idea to learn what local financiers think of what they are building… for that one day in the future when the property might be sold.
With regard to the time it takes to build a traditionally built cabin… with a team of four men we can notch and set a log cabin in place in two weeks… I would be curious how long it would take to assemble the logs of a butt and pass cabin?
I’ve never experienced any problems with regard to inspections of traditionally built cabins and I’ve been designing and building them for over 30 years. We’ve never used conduit on our wiring and not certain why that would a consideration. Windows have never been a problem either.
Many historic cabins here are built of pine. My experience with pine is that it is one of the more stable woods and tends to twist less than many other species (that’s one of the reasons most lumber is made of pine). You must have some contrary pine out in Montana :)… maybe because of the high winds it’s exposed to as it grows? The only cabins I’ve seen here, built in the traditional manner, that have any hint of twisting has been those made of oak. I would urge you to take a look at historic cabins… there a hundreds of photos of them here on this site… look hard and see how many twisted logs in these old cabins you find, most of which were built with freshly sawn wood.
I have had many members of my crew go on to build their own cabins after working with me for a few years and seeing how a home is built. I can assure you none of them have been folks of financial means. I have assisted many individuals of moderate means with getting the logs up and they doing the rest. A high quality cabin can be had by just about anyone for a reasonable price if they are willing to do some of the work. But, you are correct if someone wants the best cabin that can be had and they’d prefer someone else to do all the work it can get expensive. The same can be said about any form of construction.
I must admit I absolutely love working with copper. If I’m going to the trouble of creating something with my hands I prefer to work with the best materials I can find. Copper, long term, is the lowest cost form of roofing as well. But many who built the traditional way do not choose copper… galvanized metal roofs, the choice for many barns, is a great option… inexpensive to purchase and easy for anyone to install.
Years ago we re-built a tall silo made of chestnut lumber (you can find photos and the story behind it on this site). Basically it was the butt and pass method, just using rough sawn two by fours… each piece the same thickness, one laid flat upon the other, screwed down, and overlapping in the corners, one after another. The first few courses were fun, but then the work became “mechanical”… wash, rinse, repeat. It was honest work for a days wages, but there was no artistry other than in the design of the overall structure. There was no choosing which log would best go in this place, nor creation of a corner notch that would be admired as it held the new home together for the next few centuries… artistry… an expression of it’s creator.
I have no doubt that a home built using the butt and pass method can be built attractive… but I’ve yet to see one that I truly admire or one that compares in beauty to the classic traditional cabins. Most look like brick ranchers made out of logs. And I have to ask why is that? An attractive design cost no more to build than an unattractive one… it’s just a matter of aesthetically arranging the materials one is working with… artistry. Many years ago I built a home entirely of salvaged lumber assuming that the home would be attractive if it was made of wood… I naturally defended the aesthetics of that home once I completed it, because is was my baby, but when I started to view it as others would see it, and in comparing it to others my eyes were opened to timeless design concepts. Most of the historic cabins remaining today were built by individuals far poorer than any of us today, with far less exposure to good design resources… and yet they built their own cabins, often by themselves, and they are stunning to look at to this very day.
You didn’t mention maintenance issue comparisons… you can read all about that in the other comments made here on this topic.
Once again, thank you Glenn, for your feedback. I do appreciate it.
I would encourage you to try the traditional method of building a cabin… even if it’s an outbuilding… experience the process and the result. You just might get hooked. I did.
Noah
PS… Regarding snow loads on a roof. We do get heavy wet snow here in Virginia (excellent of snowman building)… a few years ago we had two storms within a few days time that left us with three feet of snow on top of all of the cabins I’ve ever built with no issues. Without a doubt you get a LOT more snow than we do… but how high does it build up on the roofs there before it blows off in those 60 mile an hour winds?
You’d be amazed at how the wind works in mountainous regions! I’ve seen it drift 8′ on just one corner of a 12/12 pitch steel roof! Why the home has to be tight but yet BREATHE! I’m not sure about a traditional corner only contact strength. We built a SIPs/Timber home 17 ish yrs ago. Absolutely the most uncomfortable, expensive, maintenance ridden home we’ve had and would not build another. A home has to breathe. I do like the spray foam but not over 1″ thick. It can and does separate here, (altitude ?) My second choice of home would be a conventional stick, 1″ spray foam with batt insulation. I’m not understanding your maintenance comments about a B&P? We don’t have anymore than a traditional I would think. We might have to re-chink a few places but the sun at our altitude causes issues. You mentioned wood on wood with water but isn’t that how the corners of the traditional are? We don’t do kits. We buy from rough sawn mills that use 4′ blades. It gives a lot of texture to the logs. The logs are standing dead but many times will distort after the cuts have been made causing for an irregular square log. Logs are not truly dry until there is at least one crack into the heart of the log. It gets quite creative when trying to stack the logs with the cracks pointing down taking into consideration the irregular square. For this reason we bust it hard getting the logs up asap after receiving from the mill. It’s definitely not the assembly line concept. I may have a couple small homes left in me yet and was leaning towards a scandanavian maybe but will watch your progress as I’m always interested in new ways. Our forefathers did things out of necessity where as the almighty dollar leads many astray today with far inferior home building methods. Again looking forward to your progress and learning new building methods. I hope you will be able to disclose the prices of the building materials as you build and the cost of mechanicals so we will be able to make strong comparisons. I do think it makes a huge difference that we’ve lived in the different type homes and see what issues might arise. Have a great day and good luck with the build!
An 8-foot drift on top of a roof… that must have been something to see! Yikes!
The maintenance issues I was referring to was mainly with staining and sealing… something I’ve never done on traditionally built cabins. (the comments Art makes here below on this topic is something I’ve heard from many others (and I’ve witnessed a few myself). The chinking on butt and pass is so small I often wonder how one can tell if it’s good or bad. Do you use those one of those polymer products for your chinking?
The issue I have with wood and water problems is where horizontal flat wood surfaces come together… lay one piece of wood on top of another and water will find it’s way in and it has no motivation to leave and then will eventually create rot. This does not occur in a traditionally built cabin where logs do not come in contact with each other. I’ve notched and erected log cabins on my lot that stood there for nearly a decade with no roof on them with no damage (in fact they improved with age). I could have left those same logs stacked in a pile instead, one on top of the other out in the rain and they would have been mulch in a half that time (and likely supplied me with many tasty mushrooms).
The corners of a traditionally built cabin are all angled to carry water away quickly… the V-notch, and the half-dovetail notch being the most common. The square notch, one where one log rests flatly onto the next (similar to many kits) was used only on outbuildings that would be covered with siding. The corners of a log cabin also experience less water exposure than the rest of cabin only receiving the rain that hit this small area thanks to the protruding end of the log above which prevents “the waterfall effect” seen in log walls where the bottom log of a cabin can be exposed to all of the water that hits the side of a home as the water runs down the home. And then there is the compression benefit of all the weight of a cabin squeezing the corners together.
A “square log”… hmmmm… that’s another topic for discussion. I am loving this exchange Glenn! I hope to work alongside you one day… I think we’d get along great! Can a log be square? What is a log? and at what point is it no longer a log? I’ve asked many loggers and many sawmill operators and they all answer the same… logs come into the mill, and lumber and timbers go out of the mill. A tree stands, it’s not a log. A tree is cut and a section of that fallen tree is created… everyone would agree, that’s a log. Remove the bark… it’s still a log. Cut or hew one face and it’s a still a log, cut two… the same, cut three faces and that’s where we start to get into the “fuzzy territory”, some would say it’s unfinished timber… a “poor man’s pole” from the discount pile. I still call it a log though, it would be the first log I’d use on a cabin, the one that sets upon the foundation. I would use a timber on top of the cabin as a top plate, hewn on all four sides.
I’ve seen the log cabin kit guys buy timbers as small as 4by6’s and then round the edges and call them logs. Can something smaller than a branch of a tree be considered a log? Can lumber bought at a home improvement store ever be converted back into a log? I do know that timber-framers routinely work with very large square sawn timbers, if I were to go to one of their conventions and refer to a timber as a log I’d be laughed out to the room. Maybe it’s a question best answered by philosophers…. “what is a log?” Where is that magical transition point?
I agree with you that our forefathers did things out of necessity… and out of the knowledge that was passed down to them from all those previous generations. I SO admire those guys… given a tree, a saw, an axe, and they could create something we admire centuries later. How much of what is built today will be admired a couple centuries from now? And today there has been a disconnect from that generational message… our comfortable homes have been distorted as a result of this disconnect from nature and with the availability of so many engineered products… and we all the poorer for it.
I do intend to video the whole process of my next home build… it’s all going to be painfully slow to watch… lol. I’m in no hurry and I’m not as young as I used to be. I will release cost details as it progresses. I’m going to build the home in sections of which one will be log. I intend to start the home with a focus of high quality at the lowest price to show folks they can build their own home, it can be really nice, and not cost a fortune… and that means phase one will be stick-built. I’m a big fan of what I refer to as a “blended home” where each room is something different… I love having a log den and bedroom, but am not a fan of a log kitchen for example… too dark, harder to plumb and wire, and the cabinetry is harder to install and covers up all the logs anyway.
If you ever care to share some of the photos of your work I’d love to see them! (especially ones with some of that deep snow!……… brrrrrr!)
I was wondering what is in the foam used in chinking ie if it’s toxic in any way.
Hi Mathew, that’s a good question… and one that you can find a ton or articles written on it on the internet that can provide you with more details than I can.
It’s tough when building a house to get that right balance of creating a hundred percent toxic free home… it seems that every product that is made is out to kill us. We, my family and company, have always sought to go the healthy route to such a degree that some would consider us extreme (we eat organic and pasture raised food, avoid modern medicine like a plague, home birthed our children, and do our best to build healthy homes.)
Early on we strove to build our own house 100% pure but there are some things that are really tough to get around. For instance… I love plywood and it’s tough to get around in building a home. I don’t use the chip board that most new homes are built from that has soooo much more glue in it. I tried using natural paints, but they are much harder to apply, they take more coats of application, don’t last nearly as long, and cost a whole lot more. So when we paint we count on airing the house for a few weeks before we occupy that room.
For many years I would insulate the area between the logs with fiberglass, which doesn’t do that great of a job at stopping air infiltration.. and then foam became available. It omits no odor and I’ve heard no complaints about health concerns… and the green home people love it. LEED approved.
I also don’t build with the intent of making a house 100% sealed. I open the windows and doors all that I can.
A long answer, likely more than you wanted to hear…
Noah
Hello Noah,
My name is Ken, and I have very recently discovered your wonderful site! I am about to embark on the adventure of a lifetime – building a log or timber frame home in the traditional manner (hewn V-notched cedar logs). I am closing on a beautiful 3-acre lot in Southern Vermont (Whitingham) this Friday. I am now 60 years old, and I am finally getting the chance to realize this dream of mine since I was 15 years old. I have really enjoyed watching your Handmade House TV episodes, and I was wondering if you could lead me in the right direction as to a reputable supplier and builder in Vermont that has experience with the traditional method of building? I plan to build a modest log home (2 bedroom, 2 bath, great room, loft) and eventually a porch. Any information along those lines would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your next TV episode on Wednesday!
Best regards,
Ken
Hi Ken!
Thank you for your kind words… and congratulations!… on your upcoming home build!
There is nothing better than building a cabin! Living the dream!
I wish I could recommend a supplier and builder in Vermont but I’m afraid I don’t know any.
If you can’t find one I would advise learning as much about traditional log cabin design and construction yourself and then find a craftsman builder who would be willing to work with you as a team creating your dream home.
Noah
hi, I hear all the talk about methods, but what about the first ingredient, the logs. I have a half acre treed lot that we are clearing and want to build a little one room cabin. can I use any tree or only specific trees?
I have yet to encounter a tree that wouldn’t make a fine log cabin… as long as the logs are straight, knot-free, wide-enough, and long enough you should be set to go!
And keep in mind that half of all the old log cabins out there are made up of more than one species!
Butt and pass as well, as corner post cabin designs may not be the best or prettiest designs for permanent primary homes, but they are highly suitable for reasonably fast, field expedient yet permanent shelter built under adverse conditions in remote locations with minimal personnel and equipment where relatively small logs must be used, e.g.. a “trappers cabin”. The “best” construction method depends on the intended use and conditions under which it must be built. I know of at least one corner post that’s been standing for at least 40 years and the last time I was there was still rock solid. That said, no, all things being equal they, are not as strong a design as traditional notched construction but it’s hard to imagine a situation where they are not strong enough. Certainly stronger than 90% of the stick framed, black board sheathed junk builders are throwing up today.
Well said Steve.
You’ve made some good points.
Thank you for sharing!
For the record it has never been my intention to insult the butt and pass method, nor those who build using this method.
I do feel that there is a better way to build a log cabin… and I do have issue with some of the claims made by some who promote b&p… such as “log cabin notching is beyond the capability of people today” or “b&p is stronger than traditional log home construction” (I’ve never said anything negative about the strength of a b&p cabin… I just question the claim that it is stronger.)
The focus of my career, and all of my online postings… here, on Facebook, and on YouTube has been in building homes as well built as possible.
If I am going to go to the trouble of building a house… I want to do as great of a job on it as I can.
So, I’ve sought out what has worked, what has proven itself to be most durable and attractive… then to explore how it could possibly be improved (such as plumbing, electric, etc)… and that path has led me to traditional log home construction, timber framing, etc… handcrafted homes… Handmade Houses.
For the most part I can say that the difference in cost, time, and labor to build something as well as it can done… is really marginal. (I believe that I can notch a log into place nearly as quickly as I can drive spikes or screws into it). And that any increase in time and materials is quickly rewarded with a breathtaking finished home, lower maintenance, long-term durability, and a much greater return at the time of exchange of ownership.
Hi Noah, I was wondering how you feel about the Swedish cope style of house building? My wife and I are getting ready to build on our 20 acres in Montana and this is the style we are most likely going to build with. I am an underground miner and have limited house building experience, I do plan on doing all excavation, concrete work and stacking the logs myself, with some help from friends and family. Thank you, any input will be appreciated.
I admire the craftsmanship that goes into building the Swedish cope style cabins.
Their durability in the majority of the US is questionable and aesthetically they look as out of place here in Virginia as an adobe home would… BUT… in your area I would think that they would do just fine and blend in well with other homes there.
Hi Noah,
I admire your craftsmanship and must say that you build a fine looking home. I think that the recent post of being out of place is the key to the discussion of which type of building is best. Two sided square hand hewn logs are defintely more popular on the East coat where full round log homes are the standard in the West. A log home should most importantly be organic and blend into it’s surroundings.
That being said, it should be built with locally available logs. I live in Colorado and have worked on all types of log homes including 1880’s full log butt and pass. Yes it was in rough shape before the restoration, but is still lived in today.
The difference in longevity has everything to do with the environment from which the materials came from. Old growth hardwoods are naturally more pest and rot resistant, but there just aren’t that many big old logs left. You admittedly take advantage of salvaged timbers and I doubt you would say that it is less labor to traditionally hand hew enough logs to make a complete structure than to use full round logs.
You seem to be mistaking two different styles of building. Butt and pass that most folks are impassioned about are log round, tree length with only the outer bark removed. What you are describing is popularly referred to as D log in which short sections are butted end to end and have joints in the middle of the length of the wall. The outside is often rounded and looks like a log I guess, if you consider something that has been milled on 2 or three sides a log. Personally I do not consider this as true log and this is what happens when a stick framer says’ “I’ve always wanted to build a log home”. They are used to making square cuts and don’t know how to mark a round object to make tight joinery. I worked in a mill for years and a log is round, cut on 2 or more sides is a cant. Personally I like the saddle notch chinked home hand peeled using a drawknife the best. I think when it is intelligently designed it can last as long as any other style. Making a long last home in Colorado is a battle against the sun more than any other factor. We have less atmosphere blocking harmful U V rays so it is really important to have large eves and to use covered porches to protect our logs from the sun. The second biggest problem I have seen that has lead to premature rot is lack of gutters because snow sliding off roofs tends to take the gutters with them. Combine that with a deck and when water splashes on lower logs from the deck you have a perfect recipe for rot. Logs that project past the facia line will rot if you don’t do some rot mitigation usually with borates and copper caps.
Anyways just wanted to clear some things up… B&P homes use round on round construction. B&P also does not settle due to the way the logs are pinned together. Take the class it makes sense if you understand why wood is a perfectly imperfect building material. Wood expands and contracts across the grain and does not move in it’s length. Logs are laid on there side and will move causing the height of the wall to change, but ridgepoles are often supported with vertical log supports that don’t change in height so as a log home settles the roof must be lowered to keep it from seperating. D logs suffer from flat to flat construction and will wick water through capillary action…they’re not a visually appealing home. D logs also not very effiect because they don’t have much thermal mass. The bigger the stick the more insulation it will have. B&P use large logs like 12″ tip 30-40′ long and don’t need any insuation between logs on the wall. Dead airspace is a great insulator but it has to be sealed tight so there is no air exchange. A full round log holds more thermal mass than one cut on the sides severing the yearly growth rings…do some research I think you find the physics will agree. That isn’t to say that they’re not benefits to having heart wood exposed to the elements… I like your reasoning but cold climates are different and there is a reason people build with full round logs.
I’d love to build a saddle notch home but I don’t think it will add enough benefit to outweigh the extra labor as compared to B&P. I’m going to build picking and choosing the things I like most and that add value where I live. Hand peeled is more important here with the stained logs and 1:6 ratio on chink size… 6 inch chink gaps don’t fly around here. Custome accents are where you can add more value than spending the extra effort to notch. Half log stairs are awesome and most people have no clue how to do it and met code. Log rails and trusses are the other things that give a log home the grand look and make for a quick sale. Thanks for opening the discussion but in the long run I think it all comes down to personal preferences. There is a class that teaches B&P style and their goal is mortage free living not ultimate precision log crafting. You share a lot of the same goals and values and both ways can be owner built. Thanks for all the insight and helping bring log-crafting back. Tim
Hey thanks for sharing Tim!
“A log home should most importantly be organic and blend into it’s surroundings.”
Well said!
I am contacted by a LOT of people from extreme northern climates… who have “round log” cabins in their area that have been traditionally built… and they seek my advice on what method home to build… and my response is typically… “look to what has been done… what was traditionally been built and what has proven to be durable… and attractive. If round logs are the norm… stick with that method”.
I’m a big fan of craftsmanship. I admire those round-log cabin lodges found in the National Parks out west. And I admire the craftsman of today in northern states (or high altitudes) who scribe fit one log onto the next.. none of these Scandinavian type cabins would look right here however, or in most of the continental US, nor would they hold up well.
I’m currently putting together a Handmade House TV episode that focuses on the long term outcome of building a home focused on quality craftsmanship vs one focused on building one as cheap as possible. Some view those goals as opposing each other… but I believe a person can have both (mortgage free and finely crafted)… that is what I see historically in the homes people of centuries past built for themselves, mortgage free and handmade.
Certainly we all have the right to build whatever we want to build. My goal is not to tell other how they should build, but just to let them know that there are options and consequences to the choices we make. I’m saddened at the hundreds of homes that I have witnessed built by owners in a hurry, or ones who have been mislead, many of these structures are only 20 to 30 years old and will soon need to be hauled off to the landfills for the lack of focus in quality construction techniques. The owners of these homes achieved a mortgage free home… and they had a few years of enjoyment within them… and now they have left the next generation with a huge mess to clean up.
I would love to see some of your work if you care to share… I have a feeling that you build a quality attractive home.
take care!
Noah
Noah,
I discovered B&P a few years ago and I have found very little info ( apart from paying to take a course). That said I will try to build my first log cabin 20×30 this summer out of Oak ( the trees I have in my land). I have looked around and learned from different notches and ways to build a cabin and so far B&P is very simple. I will be video recording the whole job in any case others want to take a look. Great day.
Thanks for sharing!
I wish you the best in your future cabin build. Oak is a wonderful material.
As you know from reading this thread I’m not a big fan of any method of construction whose bragging points are… “easy, fast, and cheap”… it’s the subject of this weeks Handmade House TV episode… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTsdBgNBzZU
I have seen complete novices create beautiful dovetail notches… and I’ve never heard from anyone who has regretted creating a traditionally built log cabin… but I’ve seen and heard from hundreds who have regretted the butt and pass method.
I look forward to watching your videos!
Noah,
Three things if you don’t mind, Can you point me to some pictures of a log home constructed with your preferred method before chinking is applied? Second, can you explain a little better why the scandinavian saddle notch homes are more prone to rot than hewn and dovetail homes you prefer? I’m just not quite understanding it. Lastly, how does one prevent rot when building in areas with lots of snow that will cover much of the walls in the winter?
Hi Rory… this website has many images of cabins before chinking… it’s just a matter of digging through all of them. 🙂
I’ve got no issue with Scandinavian log homes… in Scandinavia. I would recommend watching my videos on YouTube to learn more on the benefits of traditional log home construction … start with this one… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN-kA_60_Xk
I really can’t speak to snow issues that would cover log walls… here in Virginia we get our share of snow… but rarely does it reach depths that pile up against the logs… and when it does it’s not there but for a few days… and I’ve experienced no problems with it.
Hope this helps!
Noah